No. No. No. And no.
Seriously? Convenience stores are the answer to groceries downtown? Or at least, to some groceries downtown? Who wants to have a convenience store located on every street corner across from their hip, downtown condo? Who wants to have a convenience store located across the street from their business? Who wants a "slew" of convenience stores to open in the downtown area?
This would be piss poor planning on the part of Tacoma to allow for ghetto grocers to move into buildings all over the downtown area. Now, if we're talking about small time grocery stores, like Tacoma Boys, or Dave's Meat and Produce (on Steele and North I), I would support these. These are not convenience stores, they are actual small, locally owned grocery stores with fresh meat, produce, and the like. You can shop there for a whole meal, or just pick up some essentials. They are charming places and do not attract bad elements in their various neighborhoods. But the majority of "convenience" stores are ugly blights that lend themselves to loitering and crime. Drive by the corner of 9th and Commerce one evening and you'll see what I mean.
Putting a real grocery store downtown is a fine idea if there are enough residents in the area to support it. But in the meantime, get used to driving for your groceries, just like pretty much everyone else does in the South Sound. I live in the North End and, believe it or not, I also DRIVE to get my groceries. I chose a home a few miles from the grocery store, and therefore, I drive. It's that simple. I didn't move here expecting a grocery store to be built next door. I don't complain about not having a cheap grocery store within walking distance.
And that brings up another point - the "affordable" downtown grocery store. Urban-centered grocery stores are a different animal than your suburban stores. When was the last time you saw a Fred Meyer or a Top Foods open in a truly downtown setting? Everyone who is convinced that you're going to get one next to the Tacoma Convention Center let me bust that myth right now - it's never going to happen. If the downtown demographic swings far enough in the family direction you might see a Safeway or the like, but otherwise places like QFC, Metropolitan Market, Thirftway, and Whole Foods - grocery stores that excel in urban environments - will be the companies that will be looking at setting up shop in Tacoma's downtown.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a vibrant downtown with a mixture of small time, independently owned grocers selling their wares, along with a good sized grocery store that coexists to meet the needs of all that live downtown and in the Upper Tacoma area. I think this would bring more people downtown on weekends and after business hours as well as allow for more businesses to stay open longer hours, which is good for everyone in the downtown core.
I cannot see any need, however, for a ton of hideous convenience stores. In fact, I would happily get rid of the ones right now that aren't attached to gas stations. In the meantime, understand that we've created a suburban world where most everyone drives for their groceries and start working on building a population density and identifying a demographic that is conducive to the type of business (read: type of grocery store) you'd like to see in the downtown area.
1
Yea, any convenience store who's most visible sign from the street advertises the latest price for smokes with bars on the windows and "no loitering" signs is not what we need.
Posted by: KevinFreitas at October 09, 2007 10:49 AM (/fI+2)
Posted by: ensie at October 09, 2007 10:58 AM (6We+3)
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Ensie,
"Convenience store" is the best word to describe what I mean. What I'm really getting at are New York-style delis, which sell basic items: chips, pop, beer, cookies, crackers, cans of soup etc. Kind of like an MSM: sandwiches and convenience store items. They populate every street corner, even in the most expensive neighborhoods.
9th & Commerce is not what I'm going for, but I don't think it's the huge problems there are a result of the convenience store. I think that has more to do with the loiters around the bus and the *massive* problem of having a pay phone out front which facilitates drug deals. The convenience store on 9th & St. Helens next door to Bostwich has none of the problems of the other location.
The main reason I talked about the "Downtown Grocery Store Myth" is that I believe it is a myth that a grocery store will save downtown Tacoma or encourage a huge flood of residents. A lot of people seem to think so and see it as a silver bullet. Where I just see it as something that would be nice, but still probably a ways off.
Most people drive to the grocery store and will keep driving to grocery store even after moving downtown.
But living next to the C&K Market like I did made me realize that having a place to dash out on foot and get an onion, or a bag of chips, or what-have-you is really one of the best benefits of living downtown. I'm not talking about buying groceries there, where you'd want a Dave's or a Tacoma Boys for that.
I just want a place like MSM. Where I can pick up a spare item when I need it, even if it's 9 at night. Be we need enough of them scattered around to serve all the residents, so everyone can benefit.
Posted by: Erik Hanberg at October 09, 2007 11:04 AM (9T8gB)
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Erik,
I live close to the MSM and I've seen the traffic in and out of that place - I don't want 20 more of MSM delis all over the downtown. It's an OK place, don't get me wrong, but it certainly doesn't speak to upscale residents or families - two things that we're trying to draw to the downtown core. When you break it down, it's another crappy convenience store, albeit with a good sandwich shop inside.
We don't need any more places that sell crackers, beer, chips, and cookies (and cigarettes) popping up all over. You can get that crap all over the place downtown now. That's why I brought up places like Dave's Meat and Produce; shops that excel at selling fresh produce and meat would be a real benefit instead of duplicating the crap that is already available. People love the farmer's markets - having stores like Dave's are like having year-round farmer's markets.
I agree with you that the "grocery store myth" is just that - a myth. Having a grocery store downtown is not the end all, be all that will bring the downtown into the future. But I think loading the downtown with convenience stores is a completely repugnant idea. See Kevin's above comment about barred windows and cigarette ads.
Posted by: ensie at October 09, 2007 11:17 AM (6We+3)
5
A year-round farmers market would be absolutely awesome.
Posted by: Erik Hanberg at October 09, 2007 11:23 AM (9T8gB)
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Thanks for the post. I thought the exit 133 post about needing more ghetto marts downtown was a joke something akin to the onion. It's this kind of thinking that gives Tacoma its backwater reputation.
Posted by: aaron at October 09, 2007 11:29 AM (lXVCL)
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Great blog!
Hopefully, downtown Tacoma will have enough population someday to support a store that is focused on food more than cheap beer and cigarrettes and does not have bars on its windows which display signs for alcohol.
Posted by: Erik B. at October 09, 2007 11:43 AM (B9oI8)
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Erik - It's really too bad that Freighthouse Square can't pull it together and do something along those lines. I think it would really revitalize that area.
Thanks for stopping by Aaron - hence the reason for my response. I think a world with fewer convenience stores is a better world.
Thanks Erik B!
Posted by: ensie at October 09, 2007 12:29 PM (6We+3)
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Handberg is right on. A grocery store will not save downtown. Given that there are grocery stores around downtown, how close must a store be for people to consider it walkable? Since people are excited about one on 6th i'm guessing about 3 blocks. That means we need one on 6th, 11th, 19th and 25th. That sounds like the scale of convience stores not grocery stores.
Lets say one goes in the center of the curent grocery stores. How about 15th and Pacific?
What I hear is:
"We need grocery stores downtown. I mean by where I live."
Its kind of the Anti-Nimby effect. Must put the services next to me for Tacoma to succeed!!!!
I applaude Handberg for stepping back and looking at the big picture.
Posted by: Mr. C. at October 09, 2007 06:01 PM (2Ruva)
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Convenience stores: have 'em, nothing new, don't want more. Bottom line is the market is always going to be driven by butts in seats. Downtown has all the convenience stores it can [barely] support. More people will move downtown because they have money to throw away, the prices drop because of market over saturation, or they're renting. With more people will come more stores of all kinds. When it comes to food and snacks let's just hope we avoid the "smokes and lotto tickets" variety and get more open market and Dave's kinds of places. And, if given enough pressure from a real market of captive buyers downtown, a large store will eventually move in.
Posted by: KevinFreitas at October 09, 2007 07:50 PM (ROdeo)
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Mr. C - I appreciate your comments, but don't really understand your comment that a grocery store isn't needed to "save" downtown. Downtown is growing currently, do you mean to say that a grocery store is not necessary for the downtown to thrive?
I still disagree on the idea that more convenience stores are needed. There is no way that you will ever get me interested having a convenience store next door to my house. It was nice when I was 19 and a heavy smoker and needed to pick up a pack of cigs and something to quell the munchies, but beyond that - no way.
Open your mind to something better than crappy convenience stores for our fair city.
Posted by: ensie at October 09, 2007 10:48 PM (6We+3)
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What does he have that I don't! Move over.
000-974 You can do it.
640-721 At least everyone's all right.
e20-001 That's just what I'm looking for.
642-812 You'll regret it if you don't go.
642-873 Don't worry about it.Don't worry about it. No one will notice. Don't pay attention to it.
Posted by: Pass4sure engine at February 02, 2009 07:04 AM (P7E/+)
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